Google Webmaster Trends Analysts Q&A Interview – #CrawlingMondays 23rd Episode

Special episode of Crawling Mondays with an interview with Google’s Google Webmaster Trends Analysts: John Mueller, Martin Splitt, Gary Illyes, Daniel Waisberg and Lizzi Harvey, covering the following topics:

  • 00:28 – What do the Webmaster Trends Analyst team members do on a day to day basis?
  • 03:53 – Which are important trends that you think SEOs are overlooking?
  • 11:33 – Which are those trends that you think SEOs are focusing on too much and shouldn’t?
  • 19:53 – What’s the most overlooked feature of the search console?
  • 21:55 – What’s the most common question you get all the time from the community?
  • 22:22 – What’s the question that nobody asks you and you wish people would ask?
  • 25:00 – What’s the most common reason that you see when people ask you about lost rankings?
  • 29:56 – What do they dislike but see happening in the SEO community?
  • 32:27 – What do they want to focus on 2020?

Watch it now:

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Video Transcription

Aleyda: Welcome to a special edition of Crawling Mondays. Today we have some guests that probably you don’t know nothing about because you have been living the last 30 years with Dr. Manhattan in Mars or something, but just in case, and you are back to Earth, can you please introduce yourselves? You are Googlers. Everybody knows that you work here, but what do you actually do on a day-to-day basis?

John: I’m John.

Gary: Nice to meet you, John.

John: I work at Google. I try to connect the search engineering side with people who make websites so that we can kind of understand a little bit better where people’s problems are, where people are struggling, and try to find ways to make that easier.

Lizzi: I’m Lizzi. I write the documentation. So I work with feature teams at Google who want to design something for search, and then help them communicate it out to everybody else.

Aleyda: Perfect.

John: Daniel?

Daniel: Okay. Thank you. You are the MC?

Aleyda: Yeah, it’s like … He’s the new co-host for [crosstalk 00:01:08] Mondays. Thanks very much.

Daniel: Thank you.

Gary: Daniel wants to go last.

Daniel: I’m Daniel. I work very closely with the search console team. I’m based in Tel Aviv where the search console engineering team is, and I work with them, the product and also doing advocacy for search.

Aleyda: So, if anybody has any idea of a feature for a request where the Google search console, it’s you, right?

Gary: No.

Daniel: Exactly.

Aleyda: Okay, good to know. Good to have that knowledge.

Martin: You wanted to use the submit feedback in search console, don’t you?

Daniel: Exactly. Thank you, Martin.

Martin: You’re welcome.

Daniel: Or the forum.

Martin: Or the forum.

Daniel: We’ll have a link to the forum one the description, and you can ask any questions, Twitter, forum, and feedback.

Martin: Thank you.

Aleyda: Perfect. Martin?

Martin: So hi, my name is Martin Schlitz. I am also a mass trends analyst and I am working closely with the rendering team, so I look into JavaScript problems. I am in the mailing list for JavaScript sites. I answer questions on Twitter. You can also ask these questions throughout the forums, and I show up in John’s office hours every now and then when there’s technical questions. I think on Friday, we have more technical questions, so I’ll probably be there as well.

Martin: Yeah. I work with a rendering team and I am trying to bridge the gap between SEOs and developers, because I think if we all work together, we reach better results. I work a lot with Lizzie so that we can have documentation for both SEOs and developers to tackle the more technical terms. By the way, this documentation would be crap without Lizzi.

Aleyda: I see your worth a lot of time. Gary?

Gary: Hi, I’m George.

Aleyda: Thank you, Gary.

Gary: I almost said that with [inaudible 00:02:52]. I think I’m the second oldest after John. I typically work on specking, like specifications with Lizz, like or what’s the XC center for example.

Daniel: Open sourcing. That one as well.

Gary: So yeah, blah. Then I work quite a bit in infrastructure, search infrastructure, but there I do coding mostly. Like I’m changing things, and I’m also doing lots of debugging, ranking debugging. When something looks fishy, like someone reports that I don’t know.

Aleyda: Poltergeist type of cases. Interesting.

Gary: Yeah. Yeah.

Aleyda: So entering more into topic, I want to ask you, and please feel free to share your thoughts. We chart those top trends that you thinks SEOs are overlooking right now, that people are not talking enough right now and are important.

Lizzi: I don’t know. Robot’s text. What do you think?

Gary: I would think you’d go with images, rather. Images, media in general, like this year and also past year, I was doing quite a few keynotes and panelists on media in general, and that’s not because I’m bored and I hate my life… Well that’s partially true, but also because we notice that there are very basic things that SEOs don’t do. And if you think about it like, in your SEO process, where is like putting alt attributes on images?

Gary: We looked on many SEOs, like this is your cheat sheet. Like what should you do? And the vast majority didn’t look at the attributes, and we also see this in indexing of course. Like when we start talking about just do that one thing like with all the attributes and just put some text that’s related to the imaging in the alt attribute, we actually see in indexing that the numbers are going up. One master conference, we used to have these talks quite often, and every single time we see like an uptick in image indexation.

Aleyda: So did you give a little bit of context of why might be that, right? Also from the SEO side of things. It’s not that we don’t know how important it is to have an alt description, even for accessibility matters, right? Beyond SEO influence. But at sometimes it’s because they are all the very critical aspects to be optimized first that need to be taking care of. So with this you will say we can expect that image will earn more, or will start being used more with his search, or why do you think? Yeah.

Gary: So I think both. Like one of the main issues is… Well not main issues. One of the things that we see is that sites that have images don’t get the expected traffic from Google images. Traffic that we would expect them get, and when we start looking at what’s wrong, like what’s happening, like do we have like a ranking issue or an indexing issue, or we do have an indexing issue, but not caused by us, but caused by the site itself. Usually the issue is with the alt attributes, and then there are other issues as well like lazy loading that messes up indexing images, but that a different problem.

Martin: Lazy loading is incorrectly implemented that is. If you do it right, or use the needle native lazy loading in Chrome, you don’t have that problem.

John: I also see the images as one of the things that pops up all the time with mobile first indexing. So that’s like, we’re shifting all of our indexing to the mobile version, and a lot of people still focus mostly on the desktop version. And things like all attributes, even the positioning of the images on a page, things like the headings on the page, titles. These are all things that people often forget on mobile, because they’re just not as visible. Like when you’re on your phone, and you don’t look at the source, and it’s like, is there an all attribute here or not? But we need that for indexing. So that’s something where some of the sites that haven’t been shifted over to mobile first indexing, we do hear that they have issues with the images.

Aleyda: I have to say that a few people who [inaudible 00:07:45], especially publishers, right? Rely on image traffic. The way that image results where the display was changed. They have to stop relying on the traffic too, because the analytics, they didn’t got that much traffic after the way the images display were changed. And so…

John: But I think that’s something that depends quite a bit on what you’re trying to achieve with image search, and I think that’s something that a lot of SEOs don’t really have figured out that much yet. In that a lot of times people just see images and indexings. Like you see it as a count. Kind of like you have so many pages indexed, but what you really need to think about is how people might use visual search to come to your pages, and that’s kind of the point where you have to consider, well, what kind of images do I have on my page? How can I be at the right place at the right time? Or do people just not search visually for my content? Like if you’re writing SEO blogs, I don’t think anyone’s going to image search in searching for SEO graphs or something.

Gary: Basically, I think this change, or these changes, all help websites get more qualified traffic, more targeted traffic. Traffic that actually wants to be on that site. Because if I have a picture of apple pie for example, then there might be several reasons why I would search for a picture up an apple pie. Sometimes it might be just ideas, like how it should look like, but other times it’s like the recipe. Right. And in that case for example, it’s quite important to see, like, how it will look like, because perhaps I want to recreate something that my father would use to bake, and based on the image, I can identify the type of pie, and also the batches that we nowadays do, where some images get for products and recipes and some other things I’ve had forgot.

Aleyda: That use, also.

Gary: That’s also what helps the publisher get more qualified traffic. Because people know that they can buy something on that page or they can find the recipe or whatever else the other pictures are.

Aleyda: Okay. Whenever an image will better satisfy the user need, of course it makes sense to do you have an image format for that information?

Gary: If you think about it, that’s our goal. Like we want people to find the right information at the right time. If they are looking for a recipe of an apple pie, then we don’t want to show them something that’s unrelated, like just apples for example.

Aleyda: I have to say if you are using any usual platform CMS, should be pretty straight forward to set, even programmatically. It’s an initial set. Then another thing is quality, right? Because I understand that for example, to get the image to be shown, to be taken into consideration. For example, for Google to discover, the quality should be a certain minimum, right? That is all of the tick here, right? Because there’s always the back and forth of, can it be too big? But it also needs to be certain quality. Right?

Martin: It depends.

Aleyda: It depends on a lot of priorities here. Realistically I have to say, for me it all would make sense that because I loved what said about voice, right? Voice search, huge topic in the last three years or so. It’s almost 2020, and I don’t think voice eating the word anyway, but I was going to ask you on the other hand, which were those trends that you will think that SEOs are focusing on too much and they shouldn’t? So for example, I was mentioning voice before. That for me is too much of our… You don’t think it is? Do you really think that is as important or…?

Gary: So, I do think that people think too much about it. Because voice search essentially is… Like there’s not that much to optimize there. Right? Basically, and same goes for Bert, and other…

Daniel: Rank Brain.

Gary: For Rank Brain and the other… They all on the same page in the terms of, like, SEOs overthinking them, because being each case, you would just create content normally. I was saying this many times, and others were saying this many times as well. Just create the content and make it sound natural. That’s what you need. Create the piece of content, and write it in a way that it sounds…

Daniel: Human.

Gary: Human. Yes.

Lizzi: I mean, that’s just like a writing tip in general. [crosstalk 00:12:53].

Gary: But that’s what you’ve [crosstalk 00:12:54].

Martin: Listen to the writer.

Gary: Yeah, exactly. Basically that’s what you need. And we had that in the SEO guide as well since 2006, seven or whatever. Same goes for titles. Same goes for like, how many characters do you need in a title?

Martin: More than one.

Gary: It’s like, write a title, and it drive onto the page.

Aleyda: Well, no, but it’s true. 100%. Although I have to say too, from an SEO perspective, you want to make sure that you make the moves out of the available characters that will be shown to the user in search results. Right, and you don’t want that…

Martin: But you don’t know how many those are, because on a phone might be different from…

Gary: It makes sense. Yeah. They could change. It depends. It depends. Again, they change based on the device and yeah…

Martin: For instance, if you haven’t read them entitled, we might just use it. If we think that we have a better suggestion, we might revive it to the query, but fundamentally, make a good title for a human being and the rest will follow.

John: I think the tricky part is, on the one hand SEOs kind of research a bunch of keywords, and they try to target those keywords, and then they tried to just artificially include all of those keywords in the content, in the titles and everything, which often leads to kind of that situation where it’s like, well, I have 10 keywords, and I have one title tag. I will put them all in there. Rather than…

Aleyda: I have to say that I think that most of us who works, I mean at least with real business, right. I mean real companies that make money that have employees et cetera. It’s not that we just select random titles that we might think that are could be connected and not like include in there as much as possible, but actually those that will connect and satisfy. They user search need, and will address the user question at the end of the day. I think that most of us already follow that type of thinking, and not only purely because of SEO. It’s because of a user satisfaction. Click through rate and conversions from those users at the end.

John: But that’s essentially what leads to voice search. Like, if the content is readable, if it’s understandable, if it matches what people are looking for, then that’s kind of what you need.

Gary: Important clarification for everything that we said before, and probably what we are going to say. Like not everything applies on every single SEO. Like some SEOs already do pretty much everything as they should, and they aren’t focusing on keywords. They are writing naturally. They are doing image alt text, or alt attributes, and they are doing well already. What we are hinting at is that there is still a large section of SEOs who are not focusing on image alt attributes, or focusing too much on… But it doesn’t apply on everyone. There are exceptions.

Aleyda: No, I understand.

Martin: Communities grow. This is like large, but there’s like plenty of people who are doing well, plenty of people who aren’t doing it not so well, and within the group of people doing not so well, there’s many different ways of doing not so well, and unfortunately we have a tendency to focus on those when not doing so well because it’s our job to help them do better.

Aleyda: Of course you need to target those who needs the more help, or where there’s more room to grow or to fix or improve at the end of the day. Makes sense. So any other area that you think that people focus on too much and should just go or…

Martin: Performance scores and tooling. Like website performance is such a… It’s a process rather than like a state or one thing you do. And we have different tools for slightly different purposes and audiences, and they have to… Like, performance is such a huge topic that we have to somehow break it down so that you know, like top level a 10,000 foot view of what is your site doing in terms of performance. And then like you can drill in. But the problem is when you have this 10,000 foot view, and you have one number, let’s say like Lighthouse score, then some people are like, I have a Lighthouse score of 90, and I will spend billions of hours now to just, like, get from 90 to a hundred. That’s not necessarily what you want to do. That’s what you’ll over-focus, because you’re not looking into what is the actual problem and how are you actually doing. Because if I see like my score is 90 and then I see every metric that I care for.

Martin: And that depends on what my website does, and what my business wants, then I might be fine, and there’s nothing to do here. However, if I have a score of 90, and the metrics that I care for are bad, then that means that I still have to do some work, which does not mean that I can just ignore a Lighthouse score of five, but it’s a bit of an indicator of like how are we doing roughly, and then you understand and look at the different metrics and Lighthouses is a tool geared towards developers. So you don’t have to understand every single metric, but it’s something that you can give your developers, and you have to trust them to make the right decisions based on the data. Webpage test is a mix of developers and SEOs. I would say Page Speed Insights is less technical but still a little technical. And then we have like Test My Site and a few other tools that are even less technical than that. Exactly. So like you have to choose the tool, and I’m being asked therefore, so Martin, which is the one tool that we should use? And I’m like, well [crosstalk 00:18:37]

Aleyda: The absolute truth metric, that score that I should trust.

Martin: Exactly, and I’m like, what are you trying to accomplish? What are you trying to measure? Right? And most of the time people don’t have an answer for that. So like they are over focusing on these numbers and also sometimes like even small smaller aspects of it. Like I recently got into a Tweet storm of people asking me once, what does this mean? Because there was a slide in Mountain View saying that at some point when you excessively consume CSCP [with 00:19:06] Java script, we’re going to cut you off. And then they’re like, what? What’s the moment? What’s the timeframe? What’s the score? How do I measure this? And I’m like, look, if you look into your analytics or whatever you have, and you see that people are annoyed by your website and bouncing off after a couple of seconds, because it hasn’t finished loading, that’s what you need to look into. So like, it becomes a user problem, and the customer problem by that long before it becomes an SEO problem. So when you over-focus on that, you are missing out on the bigger problem.

Aleyda: I love that you mentioned that because at the end of the day SEO should be like part of an outcome.

Martin: Yes. It’s a means to an end.

Aleyda: Usability, accessibility. Yes, indeed. User experience. Excellent. And content matter. Metrics are just references, and what is important is to take content into consideration. That’s great. Thank you. So the next question. What’s in most overlooked useful feature of the search console that you think people are not making the most out?

John: Home page.

Martin: Help center. [crosstalk 00:20:11]

Aleyda: The help center meaning people asking, or…

John: No, [crosstalk 00:20:19] answer.

Daniel: Well actually one of a really small feature that I think it’s quite nice is that on the performance report, that you can actually link all the tables. If you click one specific row, it adds a future to all performance reports. So I think that’s a pretty neat feature, and I was just talking about the other day for rich results. So when measuring and optimizing performance for rich results.

Daniel: If you’re looking at one specific type of rich results, or for example products, you can just go to the search up here in step, click on that row, and then to led to all the performance reports. These future that you can see all the queries that go up, that these specific rich results, go up and all the pages and countries and all the…

Daniel: And I have a video on the search console training series that you can watch on YouTube on the Google Webmaster channel.

Aleyda: That’s nice.

Martin: slash [inaudible 00:21:17]. Subscribe.

Aleyda: This is like how you get subscribers.

Daniel: Exactly.

Aleyda: [crosstalk 00:21:22].

Aleyda: Martin, you had another one.

Martin: Yes. So in the testing tools, if you’re testing stuff, every SEO I know looks at the screenshot and gets hung up with the screenshot. Look at the rendered HTML. That’s what you want to look at.

Aleyda: Realistically it’s because visually, we want to see if something is loading and rendered.

Martin: I know.

Aleyda: And we only get the view port, first view port. Like, scroll, I want to see.

Martin: No, you want to look at the rendered HTML. Trust me.

Aleyda: Okay. There’s a good tip right there. What is the most common question that you get all the time from the community?

Martin: How can I make my website rank first?

John: That one. [Crosstalk 00:22:01]

Aleyda: What?

Martin: That profession is number one probably. Yeah, like what is the most frequent question you get is a question that we get asked quite a bit.

Aleyda: Really? I thought that I was being unique here. Next question. So what is the question that nobody asks you to and you wish people ask?

Martin: How are you?

Aleyda: Let’s remember they are people. They are people. [crosstalk 00:22:30]

Martin: I’m just kidding. Everyone actually asks that. Everyone’s nice.

Gary: Everybody’s nice.

Martin: To me.

Aleyda: Oh yes, very.

Martin: I don’t know. How do you make better content for you to users, is a question that I have not really been asked much. That’s like the core question maybe.

John: What would you say?

Martin: It depends. It’s true. [Crosstalk 00:23:06] Maybe Lizzi has an answer on how to write better.

Lizzi: No.

Aleyda: Yes. Yes please.

Martin: It depends on so many factors. Like what is the thing? That just sounds like a nicer way of saying like, how do I rank number one?

Martin: Fair enough. But I mean in the end, write for humans. Have descriptive text. Have short sentences. Explain concepts well.

John: There’s a Python script for that.

Martin: Use active voice.

Aleyda: That is very hot nowadays, right? To [automotize 00:23:41] everything.

John: Yeah, it’s like, what did you say? How many words I have to put in sentence?

Martin: Five.

John: Five. Okay.

Gary: Oh god.

Aleyda: Now people will [crosstalk 00:23:52]

Martin: Of course not. It depends, but like there’s a bunch of documentation out there how to write better, and yeah, it’s like, use active voice, have reasonably long sentences. Describe concepts when you introduce them, all that kind of stuff. A lot of that I learned from…

Daniel: there was a classic book as well.

Martin: There’s a classic book. Elements…

Lizzi: There’s lots of books about this.

Aleyda: What is the one resource that you recommend to SEOs to read about with writing?

Lizzi: Well the one that I use is the Google Developer Style Guide, and they’ve made that publicly available. Like 6 months ago or so?

Aleyda: I will look for it, and I will put it below.

Lizzi: It spoke to me because I write developer documentation, so it’s helpful. But being consistent and finding a style guide that you like, and not changing. Yeah.

Martin: Either hire a copywriter, or learn to write well.

Aleyda: Nice. I never expected that answer, so that is actually very nice. What is the most common reason cause that you see drop rankings. Whenever someone comes to ask you, and you actually take a look at the website, what is the most common one you see.

Martin: I don’t discuss ranking.

Aleyda: Or dropped traffic in general?

John: I don’t know what Gary… Gary will probably say something smart, but the one…

Gary: No pressure.

John: The one that I most frequently see is when a website is kind of mediocre, which is something that… It’s sometimes really hard, because I realize like, a lot of these websites are labor of love, and people have been working on them for years. But when you look at them as an outsider, you’re like, well, it’s kind of like all of the others of the same kind. It wouldn’t be something that I’d be able to take to the search quality team and say, hey, we should be ranking this website for this query instead of these other ones. Because it’s like, well, it’s all kind of the same, and it’s not really outstanding.

Aleyda: Yeah. So I, I can even think that that is like, more tricky. Right.

Lizzi: It’s an awkward conversation. When you see something, and you’re like, I don’t want to tell you.

Aleyda: I can understand. Also if it is something much more straight forward. Like all pages can [inaudible 00:26:11] to the home page or [inaudible 00:26:12] TXT blocking [crosstalk 00:26:15]

Gary: … very common I think like it happens even with the best SEO sometimes, that they come to us and they are like, you dropped our site from search. I’m just like, well yeah you have no index on every single page, and they are one of the leading SEOs, but it happens like shit happens, but it’s not common. It happens, but fortunately, it’s not common.

Aleyda: It’s more common to see like, a website that doesn’t necessarily provide like a good user experience?

Lizzi: Actually, I wanted to say the same thing that John said. So maybe the [crosstalk 00:26:54] There is things that you can tell people, and like when I’m on stage and someone asks me about the specific site, then I will not be able to help them for various reasons. One is that I’m not able to look at the site or compare, but if many times when people catch me after the talks, and we sit down and we talk about the site, then I can give them concrete tips about like, what they could do, and it’s not ranking tips. It’s more about like comparing websites. Let’s say that there was a core ranking algorithm update, and some site went down, and some other site obviously went up, and when we compare the two sites, the one that went up is significantly better, but not only content wise. There are many little aspects that you can optimize and take away, if your content is actually better, but in overall you are not giving the right hints to people.

Lizzi: And I said people. I’m not ranking signals. That you are an authority on a specific topic. Then how would people know that? Like if I have, people would not necessarily trust me just because I have when it comes to Apple pie recipes, but if I say that this Michelin Star chef recommended this recipe or wrote this recipe, then that already has a different ring to it. If I can also link out, for example, to specific resources that people can use to dive deeper in what kind of baking soda to use, for example, and a comparison on baking sodas, even better. There are these little things that help humans understand the content and the authority, or recognize the authority of an author or a site. I said author, I shouldn’t have said that.

Aleyda: No, no, no. Interesting enough I like that you say an author, because actually the principles that you are discussing are the ones that you’re also taking into consideration when you are writing a book. When you’re writing information, in general, right, whatever the output or the format at the end of the day, you want it to be relevant, useful, meaningful as much authority as you can. You invite people to contribute, and you refer to all the useful resources. Makes sense. Yeah.

Gary: I realized something. Did you ask about like what we don’t like?

Martin: We swung somehow. Yeah.

Gary: Because I want to say… Like SEO articles about SEO experiments that were run on one or two sites for eight keywords.

Daniel: [crosstalk 00:30:19]

Gary: For the period of one week.

Daniel: Just to make sure. This is something that you dislike, not like.

Gary: But this happened. This happened years ago, but it happens all the freaking time, and it’s so frustrating because like, you don’t even have a proper methodology like, nothing is good about your study. But you published it because, like, it’s sensational, story or whatever.

Martin: Or arcane test sites where like, yeah, I mean you have a pagination with 20 pages, and all of them [inaudible 00:31:01] Google the first two pages, and I’m like, yeah we did.

John: It’s like sorry. Sorry that we tried.

Aleyda: Okay, makes sense. Of course you’re not making conclusions out of tests that are not necessarily following a way reliable type of process or methodology.

Gary: It’s definitely possible to run proper studies, like good studies, because people like, I don’t know, like Eric Ganga for example, they were running studies like really, really good ones, and very often interestingly, their results were the same as ours. But you actually have to invest in it, and you actually have to have a proper methodology and know how to actually run studies. Because it’s very much statistics, and when it comes to statistics, then typically big numbers win.

Aleyda: And now to wrap up, what are your predictions for 2020?

John: We all have blog posts about predictions for 2021.

Aleyda: That can be for sure. Yeah. For sure.

John: It will happen.

Martin: I think predicting the future is very risky, so we should not do that.

Gary: Well we can see what general things we would want. The general things we want to focus on. I really want to get to areas of the world where I know there is a need for more information, because we see this all the time that certain areas of the world are asking pretty basic questions for example, which generally means that like the art novice SEOs for example, and it’s easy to fix it.

Martin: So that’s why we’re doing webmaster conferences pretty much all around the world. We tried to bring that into more areas as well.

Aleyda: That’s nice. That’s really nice.

Martin: We’re going to definitely look more into eCommerce as well, and I want to learn more about what we can do to support people who are building JavaScript websites. That’s an ongoing thing.

Gary: That’s annoying, huh?

Martin: No. That’s definitely something that we’re going to work on. Yeah, what else?

John: Search console.

Martin: Search console.

Aleyda: So all the feature requests?

Daniel: All of them.

Aleyda: Rolling the eye.

Daniel: Everything.

Aleyda: [inaudible 00:33:41].

Martin: Continuing to build documentation. That’s also something that we haven’t…

Lizzi: Yep. Write more things.

Daniel: Videos.

Martin: Yes. Videos. Yes.

Aleyda: Yeah, you have invested a lot in videos. It’s funny that you didn’t mention anything regarding, speaking about trends and importance. You spoke about images, and you didn’t say anything about videos.

Martin: Media.

Gary: I said media.

Martin: Gary said media.

Aleyda: Media. Okay.

Martin: We just focused on images because that’s a quick win, and pretty much everyone has images. Not everyone has the capacity to produce video, but generally, what he said applies to all media.

Aleyda: Okay. That’s…

Gary: Another thing that is on our mind is, how can we communicate better when we have issues like when we have indexing, crawling, serving issues. How to communicate better in a more structured, more proactive way. That’s something that preoccupies me particularly a lot, because we have the connect the different parts of infrastructure to make that happen. And another topic that I just started digging into is helping also those who have special needs when it comes to consuming content.

Martin: Accessibility.

Gary: Yeah. Because I went in Tokyo, and I to send to a very inspiring talk about being a software engineer when you can’t hear or talk, and how that person was overcoming their challenges, and how we can help them more with random things that we never even thought them up. So yeah, I thought that was inspiring and something that we should do more into.

Martin: You could also even consider a Google bot to basically be a user with accessibility needs in a certain way. I mean. Yeah. I use those special X’s needs and that’s something that [inaudible 00:35:50] who used an all illogical phrase that way. So I took that phrase from him and I find that quite matched and quite fitting to say like, Google bot might not be able to see images. If we make it easier for Google bot to understand what the image is about, alt attributes,, it’s easier for us to index this image and it’s better for use us who can see the images. Win win. If you have easy to read text that has a reading level of, I don’t know, six grade or something like that, that’s better than like super academic texts that no one understands what’s going on in them. It’s like think, of your users, make it easier for humans to consume your content, and usually you make it easier for bot to consume your content too.

Aleyda: That’s awesome, and a nice way to finish today’s episode, and thank you very much for all of your answers. I really appreciate your giving, like this, your time and quite insightful answers too. Thank you. And looking forward for today’s event too.

Martin: Awesome. Thank you very much for having us.

Lizzi: Thank you.